88 replies to this topic

[Ryan Shrout]

I also quite disagree with your statement that B&M couldn't have pulled that layout off at the time. The opened Kumba just a year after DF, and it too was extraordinarily out of the box and way ahead of its time. Its was the first coaster to ever utilize a Dive Loop (similar element to DF's wraparound corkscrew), the second coaster to ever include a Cobra Roll (DF being the first), the first sit-down coaster with a 0-g roll, (the only two to proceed it were the original BtR the year before, and CGA's Top Gun/Flight Deck which opened one day prior to Kumba), it was also the first coaster to utilize B&M's now common interlocking corkscrews, and was the first (and one of only 2 B&Ms ever) to have an inversion encircling the lift hill. All of that to say, that I firmly believe B&M could have pulled it off then, and I am sure that they could pull it off now. And I really, really wish that somebody would. Those who don't know theme park history would still love the ride for what it would be, a world class thrill machine, and those of us who would know the origin of the design would love it all the more for its link to history.

[SnooSnoo]

Ooo.. yeah.. most proud credit? I'd have to say.. off hand.. Dominator (GL and KD), XFlight - FireHawk (GL and KI), Carolina Cobra - Head Spin (Caro and GL), Thunderhawk (GL and MiA) and Steel Venom - Possessed (GL and Dorn).

Not really special but kinda unique.

[Vater]

And props to Coaster Crazy for not mentioning anything about the unconfirmed rumor (that a lot of people think is fact) that Drachen Fire was originally going to be built by B&M.

[drachenfirebgw]

Outrage everyone! Anyways, do I think B&M could have pulled it off, yes. Do I think they would have ever attempt a design of that nature, never in a million years. We have to remember that B&M had a proposal on the table for Busch Gardens: The Old Country (the park's name at the time) that was quite similar Kumba and not like the Drachen Fire know of today, (it featured the lift hill through the loop like Kumba, but 1. BGE want the ride delivered in 1992 and B&M could only have it ready for 1993 and 2. I don't know if this tid bit is true but apparently there were concerns about the ride's design fitting into the five acre area the way BGE wanted it to). Thus, B&M already knew about what they were capable of and what direction they want to go with the design. B&M hasn't varied their sit-down/floorless designs and element all that much, proving that they wanted the sequential feel that we see today on most of these types of roller coaster. And in the past decade B&M has even toned it down a bit and made their rides less unique as they come to realize the "more" aggressive designs like Kumba, Nemesis, and Alpengeist are beginning to age and show signs of slight roughness. And while I say "more" aggressive, nothing in my opinion was as bold and aggressive as Drachen Fire.

Hydra at Dorney Park proves that B&M is willing and capable enough to try things that are fairly outside of their comfort zone, however, Hydra has not come off as a great roller coaster to many roller coaster enthusiests and even park guests. While some have no qualms with the ride others say it's rough and lacks certain qualities that we expect not only B&M roller coasters but thrill rides in general. Basically, it proves that you can be exposed when you're out of your comfort zone. While we today see Kumba as aggressive, I believe B&M knew exactly what they wanted. Yes, it was "before its time", but it had been thought out years in advance and was springboard to create other roller coasters of a similar nature. They had/have a method for success, and that's to create great designs based off the designs they've already seen come to fruition.

Basically all I'm saying is that B&M isn't going to string the elements together the way Arrow did with Drachen Fire and nor are going to utilize such elements like the wraparound corkscrew, the cutback, or the traditional camalback hill in any of the looping roller coaster designs. Could they (even back then)? Probably, however, it won't/wouldn't be as well executed as the designs that stay within the traditional framework. So those are my thoughts, and I do wish I could have been one of the few here to ride her. That ride as well as Apollo's Chariot are the ones that sparked my interest in the amusement industry, hence my username.

I also love how I sparked a Arrow thread takeover. Vater's list has me dying to get out there more and ride these things before they are gone. I'm interested if we know anyone on the board that got to ride the old Orient Express formally at World's of Fun. It's another one of those unique Arrow creations that has captured my attention numerous times. For those who do have the Drachen Fire credit do feel proud and accomplished. I'd trade a lot to have that opportunity. Anyways, I'm excited to hear the great review regarding Vortex. While I don't anticipated getting to it next year I do hope it'll be running come 2012. Another ride I'd love to ride is Viper at SFMM. My brother and I have a keen interest of getting out to California sooner than later and we'd some of the parks as well as just take in what the state has to offer (this trip may take precedent over any other trips come 2012). I highly anticipate my ride's some of the older California woodies as well as Viper, X2, Terminator Salvation - The Ride, Tatsu, and Goliath.

And props to Coaster Crazy for not mentioning anything about the unconfirmed rumor (that a lot of people think is fact) that Drachen Fire was originally going to be built by B&M.

And sorry Vater. I just did. I know that's a whole other debate. Though even if (I realize it's a big if there) is true or partially true I believe Drachen Fire would have looked much more like Kumba than the Drachen Fire we kknew like I said earlier in the post.

Ooo.. yeah.. most proud credit? I'd have to say.. off hand.. Dominator (GL and KD), XFlight - FireHawk (GL and KI), Carolina Cobra - Head Spin (Caro and GL), Thunderhawk (GL and MiA) and Steel Venom - Possessed (GL and Dorn).

Not really special but kinda unique.

Riding Dominator over the water the way it was originally intended had to be a thrill and is definitely something to be proud of. While I love Dominator at KD, it'd be that much better over the bank of the lake rather than a flat grassy area that was formally part of the parking lot. Too bad Dominator isn't tucked Grove where HyperSonic XLC used to be or built to replace a ride such as Shockwave. I know it would have taken a lot of creativity to have been placed, fit, and look right in that area, but if done right I think it would have better than it's current location in the "annexed International Street". Also, if you rode those at Geauga Lake what did you think of the woodies that didn't find a new home. And I know there is an attempt going on to relocate the Big Dipper that will probably fail, just saying.

T-Express
Fireball
The new GCI in China
Drachen Fire

Also, you're not the only one that wants to ride these. Two of these were on my list, and Drachen Fire would be if it were alive and operating. T-Express to me is a hybrid of El Toro and Balder and while there is nothing wrong with that (it's actually a great thing) I've already ridden El Toro and would much rather ride the more traditional wooden roller coasters.

[Vater]

The story of Drachen Fire originally being designed by B&M is just that--a story. The park itself even confirmed it was not true when asked several years ago.

[SnooSnoo]

The woodies at Geauga Lake? One word.. crap.

Raging Wolf Bobs was a meandering boring filled with no airtime or.. well.. fun.

Big Dipper had good air but was rough and rather short. The buzz bars were an added plus too.. with no seat divider either. Very Phoenix reminiscent.

The Villain was/is my most hated ride that I've ever ridden. Very few rides left me cringing in pain after I got off.. Villain had me lay down on a park bench for 10 minutes and go buy Aspirin for the massive headache. While it had good intentions.. it failed miserably because of the disgusting banking, horrible trains, and Mean Streak-esque flow.

[drachenfirebgw]

The story of Drachen Fire originally being designed by B&M is just that--a story. The park itself even confirmed it was not true when asked several years ago.

Very interesting, I didn't realize you had asked them. While there may never have been anything official in regards to it "originally" going to be a B&M, I believe Busch Gardens Williamsburg management would have had to at least break a conversation or two with B&M. Like many capital expansions, manufacturers submit various proposals, and I think Busch Gardens Williamsburg would had to have given B&M at least a look knowing that their counterparts were going with B&M.

I honestly don't think they went straight to Arrow and said here do this. I think Busch Gardens may have seen what B&M wanted to do with Busch Gardens Tampa's capital expansion, and may have talked to Arrow, which had be reliable and successful for the past about what it would take to match a ride of Kumba's stature, and thus, Drachen Fire was Arrow's answer. I'm just throwing out a theory, but it seems logical enough. Like I said before, I just think there was no way Busch Gardens Williamsburg would have gone straight to Arrow because Arrow would have given them a design like the GASM and the Steel Phantom. Drachen Fire was so off the wall that I feel like something else had to have influenced that. Seeing either a piliminary B&M proposal for Drachen Fire or seeing the pilimanary designs for Kumba and in my opinion plausible and logical.

Also, parks tend to not be willing to be straight forward in regards to releasing information of that nature. I'm not saying that the answer you were given wasn't true. BEC has had a history of being up front about stuff like this, but still, it's the nature of any business to not to be entirely truthful about certain things and such (sadly of course). Make sense? I'm not trying to be demeaning, but to just get down to the bottom of things (despite the fact that you do have what seems to be a straight answer). I hate to doubt, but in my opinion Ron Toomer and Busch Gardens wouldn't have come up with that just out of thin air.

And I see, SnooSnoo, tis a shame.

Edit: As I'm reading this post I do realize it's unbelievably disfunctional as far as clarity goes, at least in my opinion.

[Ryan Shrout]

I'm not sure if I would classify Arrow's far out design of Drachen Fire as a competition thing, brought out by seeing other design proposals. The company was always pushing the envelope of what roller coasters were supposed to be able to do. Everything from tubular steel rails, to inverting riders in new ways, to breaking the 200ft height barrier. Then there's the little matter of X, the original 4th Dimension coaster and the idea for their pipeline coaster which was never fully realized. All that in mind, it would not have surprised me if I found out that BGE just asked for something big and unique and Arrow ripped open the box once again.

[Vater]

Very interesting, I didn't realize you had asked them.

I never said I asked the park.

[drachenfirebgw]

Very interesting, I didn't realize you had asked them.

I never said I asked the park.

Sorry, I misread that Vater.

[BJ KoasterKooK]

Obviously B&M was well ahead of Arrow...and for that matter most anyone else back in the early 90's, just look at how complete Kumba was, and still is, compared to Drachen Fire's actual execution of elements/inversions/layout flow. But...Drachen Fire still is almost nothing like Kumba in execution, to me, as one who has done both.

My point is Drachen Fire's attempt to pull off such incredible inversions in such a tight, packed layout is virtually impossible, especially then. I stand by saying B&M couldn't pull an actual Drachen Fire cause they still haven't, and they certainly don't seem in remotely interested to push themselves in that direction (as much as I luv them...they stay with their strenghes, as all smart, profitable companies tend to do).

That and the fact B&M's "standard" 4 wide trains and track guage are even bigger than Arrow's two wide from the day, as is Intamins and others today...is one reason why I believe Intamin is the most likely group to make such a radical coaster today. They have the history of setting some new standards, and they have the actual "hardware" to match that innovation.

All these are totally my thoughts and opinions...which I don't expect a wise mind like Vater, or Ryan, nor perhaps anyone else to agree with me, but nonetheless, I remain unconvinced that B&M or anyone could have pulled off a successful, completely unique monster like DF 20 years ago.

I give mad props for Arrow giving such an aggresive concept an actual try...and I give B&M props for being wise enough to know they couldn't "fix" Arrows problem back then, unfortunately, to the loss to a generation of enthusiasts-_- .

Edit...I didn't read everybody elses response after Vater's original response to my post, so sorry if my post is incomplete.

One note, having worked 8 years for the company I do believe I might have a lil' more knowledge on some of the statements out there above. To the best of my knowledge, yes, Arrow was the original group to contract Drachen Fire, but they obviously had major issues in pulling this all off as A-B/BGW wanted. But I also believe, as I mentioned, that B&M was not only contracted to build BGA's machine, but to "fix" DF somehow while retaining all it's attributes...were they able? Did it happen?

Nope, not then, and not today either;) .

[Vater]

But I also believe, as I mentioned, that B&M was not only contracted to build BGA's machine, but to "fix" DF somehow while retaining all it's attributes...were they able? Did it happen?

Nope, not then, and not today either;) .

If in fact B&M was asked to fix Drachen Fire's problems, I'd be interested to know the reason(s) why why they declined. How do we know they "weren't able"? Perhaps they were more interested in creating new coasters and putting their company on the map than fixing a poorly designed coaster that utilized a track style completely different from theirs. It's not like companies have to take on every task requested of them if those tasks are outside their normal scope of work. For instance, they have yet to build a coaster with a launch (with the exception of Hulk, where the launch was engineered by a third party).

[BJ KoasterKooK]

^To the best of my knowledge they didn't decline...they tried to come up with a workable scenario.

The "inhouse" word was that the two companies designs, track, and stock were so different, the inversions so tight and intense that flowed so directly into another, that they couldn't "rebuild" the coaster without basically starting from scratch, a clean sheet of paper, so to speak.

Drachen Fire didn't sit idle all those years just because A-B was trying to sell it, at least, not the first couple of years anyway.

The way I understand the final decision from B&M was too drastic a version requiring a complete dismantling, not a "fix" retaining the size, layout, and basic concept that Arrow had already produced.
So the cost, as well as other B&M plans with A-B for other rides/parks won out and A-B tried to cut their losses by selling off the old monster.

Which, as we all know, didn't happen. DF didn't relocate to thrill and scare the patrons elsewhere, she ingloriously became a pile of "scrap"...right?

And yes, of course they wanted to "create" new coasters, and A-B was one of the lead companies in going with B&M, as history has proved.

[Vater]

I'm still not sure how their inability to fix a poor Arrow design without starting over equates to their inability to build a Drachen Fire-like coaster around the same timeframe. I understand the likelihood of any company (including B&M) designing and building a ride like it (back then or now) is just about nil...but to say they are incapable is pure speculation based on nothing. Especially considering that the prototype Batman invert opened the same year, and look at how compact that layout is, with as many inversions (well, at least after the failed first corkscrew was removed from DF). Then Kumba opened the very next year. B&M was certainly more than capable.

Besides--

Drachen Fire didn't sit idle all those years just because A-B was trying to sell it, at least, not the first couple of years anyway.

...which implies that B&M wasn't contracted to fix the coaster until around the time it closed, which wasn't until '98.

[BJ KoasterKooK]

^ I'm certainly not sure of when B&M was asked to "take a look" at Drachen Fire and come up with a game plan to modify and/or fix its most glaring deficiencies...it could have been as early as 93'-94' based on Kumba's operating date. I know I started in 94' and it seemed to be a rather hot topic once I got aquainted with some of the folks in the know about BEC's doings.

Look, we can debate this forever without convincing the other of our viewpoint...I think the concept of DF's layout and inversion flow were brilliant, if not overly aggressive and optimistic with the parameters Arrow had to work with and their own technological level at the time.

I continue to believe B&M knew they couldn't redo this...and I still believe they never have, inspite of Kumba's and B:TR's general simularities. Drachen Fire was a heckofa lot bigger and faster than the B:TR's, and Kumba's flow was so much more paced and relatively stretched out compared to DF's.

Again...today, I think B&M could do a reasonable version given enough room and with today's advancements...but not then...sorry, that's my viewpoint and I don't think it's just "pure speculation based on nothing."

I'm sorry you feel my dialogue is so unworthy of decent debate, cause I've rather enjoyed this discussion-_- .

Frankly, I'd luv to see someone redo Drachen Fire with real terrain changes and just enough room to transition those rapid fire inversions without diluting the thrill and experience...aww well...dreams^_^ .

[Vater]

Nowhere did I say your posts have been unworthy, BJ. I'm debating my side, just as you've been debating yours. We disagree, yeah, but no big deal. I meant no offense, so I hope you're not taking any to my previous post.

My opinion is that B&M was perfectly capable of designing a coaster in the same vein as DF, but with better, smoother transitions, and we can look at their designs of the early '90s to see just what they were capable of. To me it's pretty obvious to see, but unfortunately there's no way either of us can convince the other the truth, because B&M never designed DF. I just don't see how, when you look at some of B&M's creations (i.e. BTR), one can say they were not capable of designing a coaster like DF. Unless you mean that they wouldn't have designed one with awkward transitions and trains that can't turn as easily, necessitating the removal of an inversion within a year because the entry to it caused neck injuries, and ultimately ending in closure and demolition of the entire ride after only 6 years of operation. That I'd agree with.

One thing jumps out at me, though, and might partly explain why we're not seeing eye to eye on this: I actually never thought of Drachen Fire as having a compact layout in a small space, even for its scale. I thought just the opposite--that its layout was pretty spread out, and sat on quite a large plot of land.

[Ryan Shrout]

I'm kinda with Vater on the thought that its not that small of a footprint. -overhead view- Its a somewhat narrow spit of land but I would say its small, nor a particularly compact layout.

[TexasCyclone]

Most sought after/ coasters that I really want to ride:


Any B&M Hyper
El Toro
The Voyage
Kingda Ka
I-305
Maverick

Defunct Credits:

-All from Astroworld-

Greezed Lightnin'
The Mayan Mindbender
Serial Thriller
Serpent
Texas Cyclone
Ultra Twister
Viper
XLR-8

[Tori Finlay]

Most Sought After:
-Hades
-Cyclops
-Thunderhead
-Tremors
-Black Mamba
-Nemesis
-Dodonpa

There are more, but those are the most highly desired.

Most proud...?
-Hercules
-Boulderdash <3
-Voyage <3
-X2
-Capitale Express in Quebec

You Arrow fanboys are crazy. Then again, I love wood, so I'm not one to talk. I like it rough, too.

[steel-Rock]

I really need to ride X2, but I'm thinking I should just wait for Orlando Thrill Park's copy.
Intimidator, Dare Devil Dive, and Cheetah Hunt should be very very soon.
Fahrenheit, Green Lantern (SFADV), the 3 launch one at BGE, and any at Knoebels are needed REAL bad,
but they may have to wait.

Wierd but I needed to ride:
Pteranodon Flyers and Fiesta Express, but they were total garbage.
Great Bear, Superman Krypton Coaster, Hollywood Rip Ride Rockit, and X-Coaster are good.

[Ryan Shrout]

^Problem is that you have to steal a kid to ride Pteranadon Flyers

[Thunderhead]

Most Sought After: B&M Flyer or a Maurer

Most Proud Credits: Colossos at Heide Park
Mystery Mine at Dollywood
Big Bad Wolf at BGE

[steel-Rock]

^Problem is that you have to steal a kid to ride Pteranadon Flyers

Both my daughter and my son's daughter didn't think that it was worth all that time.
Now I would have to "buy" them to get on it again.

By the way, Mystery Mine should also be on my list of "wierd" rides but ones that I am glad that I can say I rode.

[MorganFan]

Most sought after: Any dive machine, Kingda Ka, Olympia Looping

Most proud: Rattler-pre modifications (even though I cracked a rib), X2, Texas Giant-pre mods, Spongebob Rock Bottom Plunge

Edited by coasterrific, 08 April 2011 - 11:52 PM.

[HAJiME]

Interesting topic. I guess mine would be...

US:
Boulderdash
Bizaro at SFNE
Raven (was closed when I went.)
X2

Europe:
Katun
Colossos
Blue Fire
Balder

UK:
Jubilee Oddysee (last major UKcredit left to get... I want my giant SLC!)

Asia:
T-Express
Pyraneese
Mountain Flyer

But, most of all... Orphan Rocker in Australia. But I don't think I'll ever get the credit.