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The Son of Beast Thread


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#1 The BeastFan

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 05:18 PM

As the thread name says, this is a topic about Son of Beast. I decided to start a thread on it to kind of separate it from the KI Future thread so we can concentrate on more aspects of the park's future, and with all the things going on about the woodie, I feel it deserves its own topic.

Anyways, lets run down the obvious of what we're dealing with.

Son of Beast opened in 2000 to open the new millennium for Kings Island. It was built as the world's tallest (218 ft tall, 214 ft drop), fastest (78 mph) and only looping wooden roller coaster, under the moniker to join its father among the top notch wooden roller coasters and carrying on the Beast name. It opened in all its glory, and for 5 and a half years, it ran as it should. However, as we now know through the various recent lawsuits, Kings Island had problems with it from the start, even before it was built. Then, PKI, had trouble getting someone to build it. Major wooden designers such as CCI turned it down and at long last, Premier Rides and the now defunct RCCA chose to build it. The problems were in the structure, for the supports weren't designed properly to handle the excess forces of such a record smashing ride. The structure was found to sway too much, bolts were loosened (to the point where a coaster forensics personnel could turn bolts with his fingers), and at long last, the ride had a major problem.

Midway through the 2006 season, a vertical timber bracing in the 'rose bowl' or the first helix splintered just before a train load of 27 people came rumbling down, and as the train hit the warped section, it would later send all of them to the hospital with minor to serious injuries. KI was also accused of taking a 'Band-Aid' style approach, fixing one thing on it, letting it go and watch what would happen instead of taking an all around approach to fixing it. Even with the renovations completed in 2007, it was obvious of that approach. The Gerstlauer trains seemed an odd choice, especially with some knowledge to the coaster from which it came was equally rough and it was obvious, even with the retrofitting, that they weren't designed for 78 mph or what the course entailed. I feel they spend that $30+ million on shoddy work with lack luster results, for it was closed again in 2009 for another woman's injury and many more that weren't reported for whatever reason.

The purpose of this thread is to find out what its future is. We're all aware that it could very well be torn down, but I would also like to go into other options on what to do if they decide to keep it. I don't want the thread to become a continuous posting of 'Tear it down!'. I want to go about it with a more optimistic approach. So far, I've come up with a few options. All of these would include fixing the structure

1. re-track and reprofile parts, get another set of new trains or fix up the old trains; if the old trains are kept, perhaps think about re-adding the loop (for new trains, at least give timberliners a look, Gravity Group/Gravitykraft has its HQ close to KI)
2. cut out the entire ride from the first helix up to the final brakes and make it an out and back ride with more emphesis on hills, only keep track from the station area, lift and first drop; although its been turned down before, I would be strongly for a plug n' play type track from Intamin. Their bigger coasters aren't too far off in stats.
3. this would entail a similar method to option 2, but instead of wood, give it the Iron Horse treatment, its a boring course for a steel coaster as is, another way to possibly bring back the loop

So without further ado, chat away.

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#2 Coasterholic14

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 06:34 PM

I discussed this to some extent in the first edition of my Industry Future blog on Rocky Mountain Construction Company. In all honesty, I really see this as being the only truly viable solution for the ride. I think the biggest problem with having another coaster re-track the layout (be it an Intamin Plug-n-play, or Gravity Group with Timberliners, or GCI) is that I think it's reputation as a wooden coaster has been tarnished too badly. Even if it is significantly smoother as a pre-fab wooden coaster, I don't know if you could coax enough people to get back on it given the experience most had before.

I also don't see the structure going to waste and being demolished. The ride itself was a huge investment, too much to just be torn down...not to mention the high cost even bringing down the structure would be, it'd probably be just as expensive as "rebuilding" the coaster in some way (especially when you take into account the cost of hauling off the debris).

I think that the coaster would truly have to appear as NEW for people to give it a chance, and I think the Iron Horse track from RMC would be the best solution. Doing this, they could utilize most of the existing structure, modifying parts to make it more thrilling (double-ups/downs, steeper drops, higher degrees of banking), and really introduce the coaster as being "new." Look at Texas Giant, it looks pretty insane if you watch the video of the guys from Amusement Today riding, high banking, tons of air...and with the way people have been following it, it really has garnered that "new" coaster status in the way people have been following it and are excited to give it a ride...despite the rough reputation it obtained over the years.

I may be wrong, and it may very well survive with flying colors as a "new" woodie, but it just seems too risky. Depending on how highly Texas Giant succeeds over the next few months, it could be possible to start work later this year and have it back operating next season. I think if you don't go the RMC route, the only other option would be to re-use the wood from the rides structure, with new track, to create a completely different wooden coaster...not a 200 footer with or without a loop, but use the structure to build another wooden coaster, even that seems tough though (as much of the structure would have to be painstakingly taken apart).

So yea, basically my thoughts are RMC rebuild is about the only path that really seems viable and cost effective at this point, along with shaking its negative reputation.
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#3 greatbearrush

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 08:00 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think is just the track that it the issue. Hasn't it been stated previously that there were structural errors to the ride? It wouldn't just need new track work, it would need new support work as well. The money that KI has thrown into it already is ridiculous, and no matter how much money they throw at it, the reputation will always be there. It will take a very long time for people to build up the courage to ride it again, as stated before.

That being said, I think it would ride great if Intamin overhauled the entire track with their plug-and-play structure. I'm not sure I would jump right into the Texas Giant rehab on it. It was somewhat of a prototype coaster, which failed, and I'm not sure if Cedar Fair/Kings Island would go for adding RMC track, since its basically still a prototype, onto an already prototypical coaster.

I honestly think its going to be torn down, not trying to be pessimistic. It's sad, but this is most likely going to be Drachen Fire all over again. Too much went wrong and too much needs to be fixed that I think KI will cut their losses and start fresh. Maybe RMC track could help them "start fresh," but even then, therees also structural faults that need to be accounted for, unless they still want to take the band-aid approach. It's not so much can KI do it, but will they for the amount of money it will cost?

Edited by greatbearrush, 23 April 2011 - 08:02 PM.

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#4 The BeastFan

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 08:10 PM

^The track has been lightly maintained since the accident, and I imagine the bad structure may have contributed to more track deficiencies throughout the last couple years. I say lightly maintained as there have been rumors at times where tarps have been spotted for small amounts of time. Also, it would be nice to give it track to fit any new trains that it might get instead of retrofitting old trains to the current track (which failed miserably).

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#5 Coasterholic14

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 08:38 PM

You certainly bring up some great points GBR. It was definitely a structural issue that caused the last incident that closed the ride and caused it to be SBNO all this time, since it was a bent that broke and gave way. The thing is, as far as I know, the entire structure isn't a total loss (though someone who has more knowledge of the ride/park please correct me if I'm wrong here)...some rehab on parts and new wood could keep it survivable, especially since the structure is so massive (spreads the load out).

the reputation will always be there. It will take a very long time for people to build up the courage to ride it again, as stated before.

Not sure I would agree with that, Texas Giant had a pretty awful reputation the past decade or so, but from many I've talked to, they greatly look forward to a chance to try it out again in it's new form....no reason SOB couldn't be the same...I know for me I'd give it a second chance (or would it be first if it's converted to steel?)

I guess I just feel that if they wanted to tear the ride down, they would have done it already...why keep that much real-estate occupied with something that you don't plan on keeping around? That said, I would think they would hope to salvage their investment somehow, and with RMC, it seems completely possible to me, other options, possibly, but not as much. RMC has a pretty well-proven track record, their Iron Horse is just their new prototype, but if it's successful with Texas Giant (to the General Public and maintenance, upkeep, reliability, etc), I think it stands the best chance of "saving" SOB.

The simple problem with the majority of wooden coasters (except perhaps Intamin pre-fab/plug-n-play) is that once they surpass the 150 ft mark, they tend to get way too rough and have huge maintenance due to the fact that the trains at those speeds beat the track up pretty bad...but now there's a way to convert that wooden coaster to a smooth steel coaster, utilizing the same track, that has the same weight, and new trains to work with it...just seems the most logical solution to me.
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#6 steel-Rock

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 09:26 PM

As the thread name says, this is a topic about Son of Beast. I decided to start a thread on it to kind of separate it from the KI Future thread so we can concentrate on more aspects of the park's future, and with all the things going on about the woodie, I feel it deserves its own topic.

The purpose of this thread is to find out what its future is. We're all aware that it could very well be torn down, but I would also like to go into other options on what to do if they decide to keep it. I don't want the thread to become a continuous posting of 'Tear it down!'. I want to go about it with a more optimistic approach.

cut out the entire ride from the first helix up to the final brakes and make it an out and back ride with more emphesis on hills, only keep track from the station area, lift and first drop;


Being that I rode it only in the front and only on one day in August of 2008, I am one of the few who liked it has it was. I guess I got it during one of the times when there were no disasters going on. Roughness seems to be the curse of this ride. There is no doubt that most steel coasters are much more smooth than wooden ones, but timber gives a feel that iron can not quite duplicate. Very seldom do I like to go around and around and around (Big Spin). Even the best woodens have a problem with lateral g forces if they are going real fast (Beast, El Toro, Voyage). The worst ones do a real bad job at that (OLD Texas Giant, Mean Streak, Rattler). Whether twisted or out-and-back, the best rides excel at drops (Lightning Racer, Thunderhead, Prowler, Evel Knievel, Wild One, etc.).
As for Son, I totally agree that the very first part should be kept and that all of the fast helixes should be gone. For the industry, I think that IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THE WE HAVE A 200FT WOODEN THAT GOES VERY FAST. I believe that if we use the same space and try to re-use as much old wood as possible, we could cut down on costs. We could make an awesome "hyper wooden" as long as we try a basic out-and-back design with only one helix that is after a smaller less fast hill. (Although it's a steel, I like the helix on Expedition Everest; it is fast enough to be thrilling, but isn't going to hurt anyone.) Even though I am sure that the NEW Texas Giant is going to be a smash, I would like to see even the most hated rides keep their structure; WOODENS SHOULD STAY WOODENS if there is anyway they possibly can.
I don't think that RCCA, CCI, Premier, or Gerstlauer should have anything to do with this. It looks like there may be a very good reason why RCCA went defunct. CCI has made lots of rides but they haven't proven themselves to me yet (I haven't ridden Boulder Dash; Boss, Legend, and Raven were pretty good; Cheetah stunk). Premier and Gerstlauer need to stay with what they know. Gravity Group using Timberline trains is this ride's best hope. Almost everyone loves El Toro, so an Intamin pre-fab could be a possibility.
Most importantly, I think that they should sale this as a totally new ride. There should be no connection to what was running from 2000 to 2009. People won't go anywhere near it if they even think that is the same.
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#7 The BeastFan

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 09:56 PM

I agree that 200 ft woodies that get up to 70+ MPH can be done. The trains weren't a real issue early in its life. I feel if the track would have been engineered correctly, it would be a stellar ride. I remember riding it its first few years all over the train and it was great. They say the old trains are too heavy, but if that were the case, a certain other coaster, being Bandit at Movie Park Germany, wouldn't be running them.

Proof- http://rcdb.com/967.htm?p=11812

Loops can be easily done on woodies as well. I can easily see plug n' plays being capable of loops with the way the track is made. For those who aren't aware, the pre-fab track that Intamin uses goes up like a steel coaster, whereas, the track pieces come to the site made and all that has to be done is make the structure. El Toro went up very quickly from what I remember. With that, I imagine they made so they are more compressed than your typical wood track, which may allow it to handle the forces of a loop given the proper structuring. I wonder if Timberliners could be made to loop.

The other part of SOB that was kind of OK was the part after the 2nd helix. It rose up over the pre-lift section and there was a big swooping drop that lined up with the final brakes before diving under the pre-lift and lift to finish. That section could be kept in theory as well.

One thing I've been really upset on is how KI came to the kinds of decisions they made to fix it in 2007. I mean, they had to have done their research on the Gerstlauers and the coaster it came from. Hurricane was really bad from what I understand. I don't get why they would stoop to such low standards to try and fix it instead of take a little longer and assess it fully. Don't get me wrong, I am happy with Kings Island's management otherwise, but for some reason, they really blundered through all of SOB's problems. It kind of makes me glad Paramount is gone.

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#8 CoasterWild

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 08:40 PM

I wish SOB had a 'water splashdown' replacing the loop. The water splashdown was featured in the RCT series and no wooden coaster in real life contained that element!

#9 krosscoasters

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 09:25 PM

^Well... if you count mill chutes, technically they did.

Based on your first post Beastfan, I personally would definitely choose option 2. I never liked or understood the layout of SOB... let alone the odd appearence of the support structure, which makes it look as if it is made of toothpicks. And of course, without the plug 'n' play technique, this would prove futile since it would still retain the same roughness it was plagued with before. Honestly, Kings Island really needs to start making decisions which are solutions, especially when those solutions are right in front of them.
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#10 CoasterWild

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 12:11 AM

All wooden coasters around every park in the world are the ONLY wooden coasters which do not have vertical loops, or any other inversion. The vertical loop was in fact included on RCT2 & 3 but not the first one!

#11 The BeastFan

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 01:01 AM

@ CoasterWild- Are you seriously comparing real life to RCT? Come on dude, make some sense if you want to post in this thread.

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#12 CoasterWild

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 02:02 AM

It would be ideal if it had a similar revamp like the SFOT's Texas Giant.

#13 Ryan Shrout

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 11:38 AM

I wish SOB had a 'water splashdown' replacing the loop. The water splashdown was featured in the RCT series and no wooden coaster in real life contained that element!



Actually, RCT took that element from Wildcat @ Frontier City.
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On to SoB, I really think that even with the Texas Giant treatment, its reputation has been so tarnished in the eyes of the GP that it would be best to simply tear it down and put up something new.


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#14 The BeastFan

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 12:45 PM

I really don't think that making it steel will have it keep its reputation. The GP is smarter than that. They can differentiate that its no longer a wooden coaster, and with the proper structure modifications, I think it will surpass its original popularity, especially if they put a loop back in the course and really sell it as a monster ride thats seperate from its SOB roots, including a new name. The big thing they should do going that route is to change the layout. The current layout, even with a loop, is rather boring for a steel coaster (the helices and such are more for a wood coaster because of the laterals).

Now, keeping it a wood coaster, that'd be a different story all together.

However, I do believe that no matter what route they take, KI will be in a win-lose or lose-lose situation.

For example, if they repair it, they'll be out a huge amount of money and may be set back in future developments, but they'll at least keep it, though if its still a woodie, it'll have a downgraded reputation. However, if they tear it down, not only will they have all the aspects of demolition and removal, but there will definitely be a big backlash about it. Though, KI really has no one to blame but themselves at this point (you can't even blame RCCA or Premier on the problems the ride has caused).

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#15 Tyler Carlton

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 02:16 PM

I don't really know that the GP would be smart enough to recognize it as not wooden anymore. I can't even count the amount of times that I've heard Gemini/Cedar Creek Mine Ride called a wooden coaster. While bright red rails like Texas Giant would help, I'm just not sure that gp will be able to see past the wooden support structure.
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#16 CoasterWild

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 08:41 PM


I wish SOB had a 'water splashdown' replacing the loop. The water splashdown was featured in the RCT series and no wooden coaster in real life contained that element!



Actually, RCT took that element from Wildcat @ Frontier City.
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On to SoB, I really think that even with the Texas Giant treatment, its reputation has been so tarnished in the eyes of the GP that it would be best to simply tear it down and put up something new.



Thanks for letting me know!

#17 Your's Truly

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 11:22 PM

This ride should stay, but it needs some serious rehab. It needs new trackwork, some track modifications, work done on the trains, e tc.

Am I the only one that thinks Intamin should help with getting the ride back up?
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#18 The BeastFan

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 11:35 AM

^If you read the posts above, you'll clearly see Intamin mentioned. ;)

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#19 krosscoasters

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 12:19 PM

A rule of thumb should be to always read every prior post in a thread before posting, so that you have an idea of things that are already mentioned.

I think Son of Beast should have never been built with the layout it has. It takes up too much space and, as I mentioned before, it never made sense to me.

Edited by krosscoasters, 26 April 2011 - 12:19 PM.

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#20 PikaPower

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 06:36 PM

If Kings Island is never going to reopend the Son of Beast coaster maybe they should just remove it and replace it with another wooden coaster with no loops and splashdowns, but smaller than the Beast.

#21 Daniel Westfall

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 06:41 PM

removing it costs too much money.

#22 The BeastFan

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 08:36 PM

@CoasterWild and PikaPower- Whats with your obsession with wooden coaster splashes? I for one hope that NO wooden coaster has a splash. The submerged wood would be a nightmare to maintain.

On the reputation aspect if it goes steel, when most coasters are released now a days, there are computer images and stuff now that wasn't around in 2000 when SOB came out. I think stuff like that would do more than enough to convince the public that a steel SOB would be better.

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#23 Vicarious Chair

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 09:10 PM

I really don't think that making it steel will have it keep its reputation. The GP is smarter than that. They can differentiate that its no longer a wooden coaster, and with the proper structure modifications, I think it will surpass its original popularity, especially if they put a loop back in the course and really sell it as a monster ride thats seperate from its SOB roots, including a new name. The big thing they should do going that route is to change the layout. The current layout, even with a loop, is rather boring for a steel coaster (the helices and such are more for a wood coaster because of the laterals).

Now, keeping it a wood coaster, that'd be a different story all together.

However, I do believe that no matter what route they take, KI will be in a win-lose or lose-lose situation.

For example, if they repair it, they'll be out a huge amount of money and may be set back in future developments, but they'll at least keep it, though if its still a woodie, it'll have a downgraded reputation. However, if they tear it down, not only will they have all the aspects of demolition and removal, but there will definitely be a big backlash about it. Though, KI really has no one to blame but themselves at this point (you can't even blame RCCA or Premier on the problems the ride has caused).


Do you think people would actually care if it stayed wooden? I think the general masses prefer steel tracked coasters any way. If anything, they'd still be hesitant to ride it due to it's previous reputation. And if it is turned into an inta-steelie, then the layout wouldn't stay the same anywho; Texas Giant is very different now that it has been changed; different transitions entirely and cut parts of the layout.

#24 The BeastFan

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 09:26 PM

^Are you kidding? SOB is a much more recognized coaster than Texas Giant, and I truly believe people would care if it would stay wood or not, especially annual KI goers. People aren't as dimwitted as we make them and in this case, I think its future would be GREATLY affected depending on the type of track used. To give you an example of how well its known, I know people that have come from AROUND THE WORLD to ride the duo of both Beast and Son of Beast. Heck, Kings Island was more of a destination park because of those two. It was highly noticeable about the waning reputation of Kings Island when SOB closed. I think people highly underestimate what the ride has meant to Kings Island despite its problems. Its closure is about the equivalent of what it'd be like if Beast bit the dust.

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#25 Vicarious Chair

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 10:48 PM

I just don't think converting it to a steelie monster with a loop wouldn't hurt the ride or the park's rep, only increase it. Because not only is the ride more intense, but has the loop it once advertised. So basically the ride would perform like a steelie, have the soul of a woodie and the loop that it always wished it could keep.




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