136 replies to this topic

[steel-Rock]

^ That is totally wrong. As I see it they can do four things, only one of which will not hurt their reputation badly.

#1. Bulldoze the whole thing, start again with a completely different ride. They would be admitting defeat.

#2. Try to keep the ride as is but with changes to its structure and the trains. They would be admitting that they are stupid. They would be trying to spend as little money as possible with no regard for how the ride turns out or public safety.

#3. Make drastic changes to the whole layout and replace the track with STEEL rails. They would be admitting that they don't have an idea of their own. If they were going to make "the world's best hybrid" they should have done it before the New Texas Giant. Following Six Flags is not something Cedar Fair should do; that is their closest competition.

#4. Have a completely WOODEN coaster with a 200ft hill or drop. It has to be built or fixed so that it will be running smooth and safe five years from now. I am not even sure that this is possible, but if they do it, they would be saying that their originally idea was sound. They would be admitting that they tried something neat but that they didn't do it right. Everybody else already knows this. It is time that they admitt it too. Confessing is best for the soul of the park and for the ride.

[The BeastFan]

^See, now thats my concern. KI has been asked directly about the issues about the ride before since they've been uncovered via the investigations for the lawsuits, but of course (for their own good as well), they've answered 'no comment'. I'm starting to have a hard time believing they're going this long without really saying anything drastic. The CEO of Kings Island did say he wasn't happy with the ride, but nothing beyond that. I would think they would have done or said SOMETHING that would enlighten the fact that they screwed up. Its better than the potential outcomes that could occur if they keep quiet for too much longer.

Again, I have no problem with the current management. They've done a wonderful job on the rest of the park. Its just when it comes to SOB, they've botched it up at every turn.

[steel-Rock]

^ Their silence might have to do with lawsuits. Then again the whole thing started with Paramount. Is current Cedar Fair management really responsible for anything that happened before 2006?

Again, I have no problem with the current management. They've done a wonderful job on the rest of the park. Its just when it comes to SOB, they've botched it up at every turn.

The other "Kings Island's Future" thread may be better place for it, but I want to comment on that last bit. You are 89% right about the rest of the park. Where I have a problem is where theming was destroyed. Italian Job was much better than what they have done to Backlot Stunt. Then again, theming and Cedar Fair are as compatible as fire and ice. Flight Deck, Afterburn, Nighthawk, and Possessed might have had to change, but give me a break. They haven't done bad with the two Intimidators though.

[The BeastFan]

^Apologies then. I just put the two things about SOB and the management together. BTW, its CF that made most of the recent decisions like using a poor choice of trains and such. But, I'll leave the management stuff out.

As you can see, most of us KI fans have a lot of angst and passion when it comes to this subject.

[MorganFan]

They could recycle the wood to make dueling GCIs!
Well, probably not, but it's a good idea, none the less.

[Your's Truly]

^If you read the posts above, you'll clearly see Intamin mentioned.

I'm a "skimming" reader, it's a problem for me!

^nah, I think they should remodify the track, fixing any tight turns and "forceful ascents" (like the turn going into the lift).
Redo the trackwork, of course, for a smoother ride
Adjustments for the trains if needed
Possibly make supports steel (hold up better?)
Possibly re-introduce the loop?

eh, but hopefully they open this ride up for next year.

[The BeastFan]

^If they were trying to open it next year, we'd be seeing evidence of work already. I'm not entirely sure how much they've treated it or anything since 2009, and with over 7,000 ft of track to work on, it'll take a while. If they were doing a TG treatment, they've of started last year. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Texas Giant was closed for a good part of 2 years for its rehab, and its shorter.

[Your's Truly]

^TG was closed for around a year and a 1/2. But yea, guess you're right: It'd take a while to refurbish/renovate 7,000 ft. of track.

[Tori Finlay]

I like dfn's idea...steel supports. They can do the opposite of Texas Giant, considering the track wasn't the issue, it was the structure. Steel supports would fix this. Naturally, they'd still need new track, but it would be really awesome if they did that.

[Kevin Dice]

removing it costs too much money.

Well then they could have a bonfire.
If that happens to be illegal they can declare it a "weenie roast". (It's a law in kansas city. Burning of leaves is illegal, but there is the weenie roast loop hole.)
I imagine dump trucks for the ashes would be much less expensive than 200+ foot cranes to remove the wood piece by piece.

In all seriousness though, I think the best option would be to take the ride down and donate the wood to habitat for humanity. That way, the SOB fans will be mad, but not quite as mad because the wood is going to a charity. I think that if they were to try to fix the structure, they would grossly underestimate the cost and extent to which they would have to fix the structure.

Another option would be to build a ride that has the theme of a defunct coaster. The scenery would already be there. It's the perfect solution...

[Daniel Westfall]

From: http://www.epa.gov/o...precautions.htm

• Do not burn pressure-treated wood in open fires or in stoves, fireplaces or residential boilers because toxic substances may be produced as part of the smoke and ashes.
• Treated wood can be disposed of with regular municipal trash (i.e., municipal solid waste, not yard waste). Homeowners should contact the appropriate state and local agencies for further guidance on the disposal of treated wood.
• Dispose of treated wood from commercial or industrial use (e.g., construction sites) by complying with local landfill rules. It can also be burned in commercial or industrial incinerators or boilers when done in accordance with state and federal regulations.

[Kevin Dice]

In reference to that last bullet point ^, they could use the wood to heat their buildings. FOF must cost a lot to heat at some parts of the year. If they were to follow the regulations, it could work.

If they have enough money, I would say put steel rails on it and fix the structure. But if that would cut into funds for building a new ride in the near future, then I would just let it sit there....like it has been doing for quite a while. I think it's going to be a deferred decision for a few more years.

[Vicarious Chair]

^ That is totally wrong. As I see it they can do four things, only one of which will not hurt their reputation badly.

...

#3. Make drastic changes to the whole layout and replace the track with STEEL rails. They would be admitting that they don't have an idea of their own. If they were going to make "the world's best hybrid" they should have done it before the New Texas Giant. Following Six Flags is not something Cedar Fair should do; that is their closest competition.

Soo, you're saying no one else can have a hybrid intamin steelie because six flags was the first to get one? No, that is totally wrong. How do you think the whole theme park industry boomed? By one park building a ride, and another one building one similar or similar with a new addition to it, until new sorts of rides we're made... Yes, being the first helps, but following isn't always a bad thing. This same argument can be applied to other areas as well. Just because CP had 17 rides doesn't mean SFMM should've gotten the 18th or whatever they're at. Just because Six Flags had some impulses didn't mean Cedar Point shouldn't have gotten Wicked Twister the next year.

And yes, I understand the situation is different being that both would be re-invented rides, not new rides entirely, BUT taking what I just said about building rides similar, SOB:STEELIE would have the advantage in height, adrenaline and loop, plus whatever layout they'd add or change up.

[The BeastFan]

I'm kind of throwing this out there for anyone who can possibly answer this.

Could the case be made that a hybrid of this size could have problems down the road in terms of track and structure durability? I mean, wood and steel have different tolerances. Could the steel track have enough of an impact on the wood structure given the forces involved with a 218 ft coaster at 80 mph to possibly hamper the wooden structure? Another thing I thought of is that wood tends to have more 'give' to it than steel and the track is made to reflect that. With steel instead of wood, would the wood giving too much create problems for the less than tolerable steel track? I mean lets face it, before Texas Giant, the next biggest hybrids using steel track and wood supports were Excalibur at Valleyfair and Gemini. Texas Giant and Son of Beast are many times bigger and have things others before didn't have to contend with, not to mention that Excalibur and Gemini were designed as hybrids from the start whereas TNTG and SOB aren't.

Also, I kind of figured with Diamondback now on the premises, it would be weird for KI to have to advertise this AND Diamondback if they go the hybrid route when the GP will pretty much discern that they are the same type of rides (different layout or not). Yes I know it might not be that much of a concern, but KI still sells Diamondback as the "tallest, fastest and meanest" ride in the park.

[Your's Truly]

^but how about make the structure steel and the track wooden? Wouldn't that hold better? A reverse Texas Giant rehab (without removing a helix)? Paint the steel supports brown for the GP to see it as a wooden? (I'm almost sure that 90% of the GP who would come upon the ride would think it's wood).

For the advertisement part, I don't think it's wierd. The GP would see TWO massive coasters and I think that it will bring more to the park if KI ever does a major rehab for the ride. But who knows.

Only time can tell.

[steel-Rock]

^ As I said, I'm not sure that a completely wooden coaster of 200ft could be done that would last. For those of us who loved S.O.B., the best alternative could be what you suggest. A "reverse Texas Giant" with steel supports and wooden track might even be able to keep most of the original layout. By the way, there wouldn't be any need to paint the steel brown. I know that I'm going to regret bringing this up again, but wooden track means wooden coaster. As far as the GP goes, I would guess that they think of rides like Voyage, Hades, or Ravine Flyer II as woodens. If I said "hybrid" to someone on the street, they would think that I'm talking about one of the new more earth friendly CARS. We should not forget that if we are going to do this, the whole thing would most likely be torn down; this is something that KI may not want to pay for yet.

As for Diamondback being "the tallest, fastest and meanest ride in the park", it is 230ft tall and goes 80 mph. That is still slightly more than 218ft tall and 78 mph.

[Vater]

Sooo many comments to comment on, but I just don't have the time or energy. But I'll pick out a select few.

I'll start with being the pessimist: tear it down, it sucked.

If it must be salvaged, I do think a New Texas Giant-like makeover would be the best option, provided they drastically alter the layout.

its a boring course for a steel coaster as is

It's a boring course for a wood coaster as is, too, and it was a boring course even before the loop was removed. The only thing that made it exciting was not knowing if you were going to return to the station uninjured or possibly even alive. Suspense at its finest.

On the reputation aspect if it goes steel, when most coasters are released now a days, there are computer images and stuff now that wasn't around in 2000 when SOB came out.

Computer images didn't exist in 2000? Really?

My hatred for it aside, if it is salvaged, I really don't think enough people will know or (more importantly) care whether the track remains wood or is converted to steel to make KI hesitant to make any changes to it. Its current reputation isn't going to affect its future, as long as it doesn't remain the piece of crap it currently is (or was before it closed).

All wooden coasters around every park in the world are the ONLY wooden coasters which do not have vertical loops, or any other inversion. The vertical loop was in fact included on RCT2 & 3 but not the first one!

I don't even know what this means. I've reread it about seven times and I can't make any sense of it whatsoever.

[The BeastFan]

I'll start with being the pessimist: tear it down, it sucked.

Did you not see the start of this thread? I think most of us get that tearing it down is a pretty obvious option. I'm trying to go on about options if it is to stay.

Also, if it sucked so bad, why are so many people wishing it was open again? There is a really passionate effort by the public and the KI fan base to keep the ride. As much as that may not be an issue with you, I'm sure it has some bearing on what the park's decision will be.

Computer images didn't exist in 2000? Really?

Ok fair enough, so I forgot about those, but no need to jump down my throat. What I meant was they weren't as mainstream as they are now. The prior KI rides up to Son of Beast were shown with scale models people built (particularly Flight of Fear).

My hatred for it aside, if it is salvaged, I really don't think enough people will know or (more importantly) care whether the track remains wood or is converted to steel to make KI hesitant to make any changes to it. Its current reputation isn't going to affect its future, as long as it doesn't remain the piece of crap it currently is (or was before it closed).

What do you mean its reputation won't affect its future? Companies' reputations would be on the line in terms of how Son of Beast would turn out after a rehab. If it succeeds, said company will be praised around the world. If it fails, well, reference Arrow Dynamics.

As I said before, with the impact Son of Beast has had on Kings Island, tearing it down would be the equivalent of tearing down the Beast. The view towards Kings Island's actions would be monumental in nature. The way I see it though, Kings Island is at a win-lose situation no matter what they decide to do with it.

[Vater]

Did you not see the start of this thread?

Yep, just thought I needed to say it anyway since it's the absolute best option, in my opinion.

Also, if it sucked so bad, why are so many people wishing it was open again?

Honestly? I really have no idea. Those people suffered more severe brain damage on the ride than I did, perhaps? Maybe if SoB inflicted more head trauma during my one ride (I really can't imagine it being much worse than it was without necessitating a trip to the emergency room) I'd be oblivious to how awful it was and wish the ride would reopen again, too.

Kidding aside, I really don't get it...the layout sucks, people complained about its brutality, it repeatedly injured people to the point where there are still pending lawsuits...why such love for it? Drachen Fire was a better ride but no one ever lined up for it like people did for SoB. It really eludes me, and is one of those things that will, for me, forever remain a mystery.

no need to jump down my throat.

Not jumping down anyone's throat, just correcting facts.

What do you mean its reputation won't affect its future? Companies' reputations would be on the line in terms of how Son of Beast would turn out after a rehab. If it succeeds, said company will be praised around the world.

I meant its current reputation--as a brutal, lousy ride--won't affect its future in the eyes of the general public in the hypothetical scenario of it having a makeover like Texas Giant or something like that done. In other words, people won't care whether the ride is wood, steel, or Nerf, as long as it doesn't open as the same ride it is now.

Actually, scratch that...I'd ride it again in its current form if it was Nerf.

As I said before, with the impact Son of Beast has had on Kings Island, tearing it down would be the equivalent of tearing down the Beast. The view towards Kings Island's actions would be monumental in nature.

I seriously doubt that. First, SoB never had the legendary reputation that Beast has, at least among the masses. A select few (brain damaged) fans, maybe. Seriously, it's only 11 years old, and it's had a ridiculous amount of problems since day 1. Before day 1, in fact. Second, 'monumental' is a pretty strong word. Will a few people be pissed if it was dismantled? Yeah, probably. Enough so to boycott the park? Possibly, though far fewer (and I'd begin to question their sanity). But certainly not enough to affect Kings Island's bottom line. I'd be surprised if the number of people who refused to return to KI because SoB is no more amounted to even one quarter of one percent of its annual attendance.

I think your feelings about the ride are clouding your view of its true importance and significance. Even the Beast is far more significant, and admittedly it would sting a little if that was the coaster potentially on the chopping block, but I really think I--and most people with a sense of reality--would be ok...

[Ryan Shrout]

Actually, scratch that...I'd ride it again in its current form if it was Nerf.

And you say you're not brain damaged? lol

Anyway... I think a Eiffel Tower ride op summed up the situation best when I was at the park back in '09. A guest asked why the big wooden coaster was closed and the ride op simply answered, "Because it was a bad ride that was so rough it injured people. If you really want to ride it, go up to Cedar Point and ride Mean Streak. Its basically the same thing." That's a direct quote, and while I feel like it may also belong in the old "Stupid Things overheard at Theme Parks" thread, there are some obvious parallels. Both are tall, fast, rough, and have rather tame layouts. MS has slightly more thrill potential in its layout, while SoB is taller, faster, and rougher. Either way, you don't see either ride breaking into many people's top 10. IMO, any change is a good one at this point.

[The BeastFan]

Ok, I'll try to tone it down. Sorry if I seem overly passionate.

Anyways, I have something to report on the status of the track. I got a hunch from the Save SOB page on FB about broken cross beams around the 2nd hill and into the rose bowl. I went up the Eiffel Tower on July 4th with a camera in hand and I'm pretty awestruck by what I'm seeing. The cross beams I'm speaking of are of the track, the ties that are placed between the running rails. There are dozens of them going up the 2nd hill, into the rose bowl and down the drop after the MCBR that are full of these cross beams hanging by what seems to be single nails. Most of which are on the high banked sections. I also see some warped hand rails as well mostly in the rose bowl. There is also warped track as well.

Here are some pics.

Going up the 2nd hill and drop off the MCBR (again look at the cross ties)
 KI July 4th 003.JPG   119.07K   162 downloads


The Rose Bowl
 KI July 4th 007.JPG   112.78K   154 downloads

[biZarRo]

Did that come with age, or bad designing?

[The BeastFan]

Probably age. Most speculate it hasn't been taken care of per usual since it last ran in 2009.

[Your's Truly]

"...board determined that it really wasn't financially feasible to repair...Kinzel's
last orders of business may have been to sign the death warrant for Son of Beast"

The Link.

This is from screamscape, but it's just a little heads up of
what may come of the tallest wooden coaster on Earth.

Edited by Your's Truly, 23 July 2011 - 12:52 AM.

[Daniel Westfall]

Sort of what most of us figured around here after the pictures that Mike Strobel posted. Thanks for the link, and we'll try to get a News story up soon after we can do some additional research and possibly some interviews. Screamscape is great and all, but I'd rather not use it as my only source.