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Cedar Point Gatekeeper 2013 B&M Wing Rider

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#1301 Sam Natcher

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 09:34 AM

I guess that is what I don't get. Dive coasters couldn't be built anywhere in the US (by B&M anyhow) until now. So Cedar Point will be the first park outside of Busch Gardens to have one. They are adding, and improving on, something that until now was unavailable anywhere except Busch. It's not like they are adding clone, or a popular model even. I can appreciate people not being extremely excited about it, but at the same time you have to realize it is a record breaking major addition to the park as well as something no one else has outside of Busch. In the end, I cannot wait to ride it and I applaud Cedar Point for bringing it to the park. 


Favorite Parks- Cedar Point-Kings Island-Carowinds-Knoebels-Kennywood
Favorite Steel- Fury325- Millennium Force- Intimidator 305-Bizzaro (SFNE)-Maverick-Banshee-Wicked Cyclone-Nitro-Phantoms Revenge-Diamondback

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#1302 Andrew Rybarczyk

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 10:51 AM

Just because something is taller and faster doesn't make it automatically better. Kinda Ka is taller/faster, yet most say Dragster is still the better ride. I think the major misconception here is that the layout leaked is automatically better just because the stats are better. It is quite possible that the two Busch versions are better than this or at least able to be debated as such. This would now be the second coaster where that has happened under this regime, a scenario that was NEVER the case under the old regime.

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#1303 Superbatbpy

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 11:29 AM

They could send that thing to dorney no arguments from me, but this just seems silly. Raptor wasn't a world changer it wasn't the first custom invert it had similar claims as the rumored dive coaster. Actually that year nemesis was built too. Maverick doesn't break any records or do anything brand new either, that doesn't stop it from being many peoples favorite. Wicked twister did the same just made an existing concept slightly larger without adding anything new. Pipescream, is it even a coaster. It feels like the super loop of cedar faire. Gatekeeper on the other hand had the wing over drop and the world's tallest inversion. A new inversion and a height record doesn't make it everyone's favorite. Fun is fun and a dive coaster would be fun even if it were slightly smaller than shiekra or Griffen.

Raptor was amongst the world changers when it debuted in '94, the concept was only 2 years old at the time. Not to mention Raptor wasn't just slightly bigger than the other inverts at the time for the sake of a record, it was MUCH larger and dwarfed the others. A stark contrast to the current CP installing a 17 year old concept which is only a meniscule amount bigger than current offerings.

Maverick, while not AS ground breaking as MF or TTD, was still a coaster concept we had not really seen before. A 95 degree drop, LSM (or LIM I forget) lift hill, a mid-course launch, all things very rare and/or not seen before.

You could even argue that Wicked Twisted (while not ever intended to be a major additon in terns of coasters) was more ground breaking in 2002 than a dive coaster is in 2016.


And you're correct fun is fun, a Sky Rocket II coaster is extremely fun as well. Does it belong at CP?? Not even in the slightest.

At the end of the day, with Kinzel gone, CP's mojo in terms of new thrills is gone. They're mainly resting on their laurels in terms of new additions and just installing tried and true concepts. They were the LEADER in inmovative thrills for more than 16 years, sad to see them relinquish that title.

Edited by Superbatbpy, 21 August 2015 - 11:43 AM.


#1304 Sam Natcher

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 11:42 AM

No doubt there. I agree that stats don't make it a better ride, and it definitely shouldn't be judged as such before experiencing it. But that goes both ways, don't write it off either. By the stats, it is an improvement on paper, but it still boils down to the ride once it's done. I get that in the past, Cedar Points main focus was blowing everyone away with new, innovative, never seen rides, and you're right, it definitely doesn't seem to be the main focus of the Ouimet era to continue that. They seem more focused on making the park appeal to the whole family rather than the hardcore enthusiasts, but I get it, and am ok with that. But let's not lose sight of everyone last year moaning about Fury 325 being another "boring" B&M, even after the layout was released. A year later, it is a huge hit. What's to say Valravn won't follow in those footsteps?


Favorite Parks- Cedar Point-Kings Island-Carowinds-Knoebels-Kennywood
Favorite Steel- Fury325- Millennium Force- Intimidator 305-Bizzaro (SFNE)-Maverick-Banshee-Wicked Cyclone-Nitro-Phantoms Revenge-Diamondback

Favorite Wooden- Boulder Dash-Phoenix-El Toro-Thunderbolt(Kennywood)-Beast-Boss-Twister-Jack Rabbit(Kennywood)-Big Dipper (GL)-Blue Streak (CP)


#1305 drachenfirebgw

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 12:54 PM

I'm sure the dive coaster will be a decent ride, the problem I'm having is why at CP?? CP doesn't NEED a dive coaster (a 17 year old concept). They need something groundbreaking like Magnum, TTD, Maverick, Raptor, and MF were. Otherwise it seems like they're adding a coaster just for the sake of adding one.

A dive coaster doesn't greatly improve CP's line-up, but it would at a park like Dorney, WoF, Knott's, Valleyfair, etc;


You all are absolutely insane. This is a B&M Dive Machine! The only two in the US consistently rank in the top 30 roller coasters in the world! And yet you all are demolishing Cedar Point.

Really? Wicked Twister was innovative?! Let's just make the back spike a twist and a little taller than all the others. This is far more innovative than that! I just don't understand how a roller coaster that if it rides like Griffon and SheiKra should rank in the top 30 is basically being regarded as an addition of no use.

I dare say this kind of logic may one day be the demise of roller coaster enthusiasts. One day everything is just going to be too boring and not innovative enough and everyone clamoring with lose interest, which honestly is fine by me.

How does Six Flags win by default when only one of their potential additions even has the chance of eclimpsing this? An RMC Iron Horse of Roar is no longer innovative folks. This will be the sixth Six Flags Iron Horse, while Cedar Point's addition will only be the third Dive Machine in the US, and we haven't seen one since 2007.

That and does Cedar Point really need anything? Do they really need a new roller coaster? Absolutely not. There are plenty of other parks that would kill for this ride and yet Cedar Point enthusiasts are running from it like the plague.

That and we can't magically predict the future. If you really think Cedar Point's days of leading the thrill industry are over than so be it. As I've said before, Kinzel could be brought back on tomorrow. We really have NO IDEA what the future holds for any park. All I'm saying is never say never. That and we do happen to be working with the park chain that convinced B&M to go above 300' and build a state of the art Invert, when it was thought that ride style was long gone.

2015 Agenda: Carowinds, Holiday World, and Six Flags St. Louis.
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Coaster Count: 151 - Griffon Count: 52


#1306 MaverickD9

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 02:06 PM

If it's so popular and highly reviewed by the GP & enthusiast... Why is CP the only Park building one for next yr? Where's the other parks from across the country demanding one?? Disney, Universal/IOA, SF, HW? Even internationally, only 1 Dive machine was built this yr.  Nothing announced as of yet other than CP for this yr. If CP made a deal to be exclusive.. Man did they get robbed from B&M. BC NOBODY WANTS ONE! 


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#1307 Superbatbpy

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 02:20 PM

I'm sure the dive coaster will be a decent ride, the problem I'm having is why at CP?? CP doesn't NEED a dive coaster (a 17 year old concept). They need something groundbreaking like Magnum, TTD, Maverick, Raptor, and MF were. Otherwise it seems like they're adding a coaster just for the sake of adding one.

A dive coaster doesn't greatly improve CP's line-up, but it would at a park like Dorney, WoF, Knott's, Valleyfair, etc;

You all are absolutely insane. This is a B&M Dive Machine! The only two in the US consistently rank in the top 30 roller coasters in the world! And yet you all are demolishing Cedar Point.

Really? Wicked Twister was innovative?! Let's just make the back spike a twist and a little taller than all the others. This is far more innovative than that! I just don't understand how a roller coaster that if it rides like Griffon and SheiKra should rank in the top 30 is basically being regarded as an addition of no use.

I dare say this kind of logic may one day be the demise of roller coaster enthusiasts. One day everything is just going to be too boring and not innovative enough and everyone clamoring with lose interest, which honestly is fine by me.

How does Six Flags win by default when only one of their potential additions even has the chance of eclimpsing this? An RMC Iron Horse of Roar is no longer innovative folks. This will be the sixth Six Flags Iron Horse, while Cedar Point's addition will only be the third Dive Machine in the US, and we haven't seen one since 2007.

That and does Cedar Point really need anything? Do they really need a new roller coaster? Absolutely not. There are plenty of other parks that would kill for this ride and yet Cedar Point enthusiasts are running from it like the plague.

That and we can't magically predict the future. If you really think Cedar Point's days of leading the thrill industry are over than so be it. As I've said before, Kinzel could be brought back on tomorrow. We really have NO IDEA what the future holds for any park. All I'm saying is never say never. That and we do happen to be working with the park chain that convinced B&M to go above 300' and build a state of the art Invert, when it was thought that ride style was long gone.
Which post are you quoting? Because I never mentioned Six Flags.

#1308 drachenfirebgw

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 02:21 PM

Really? Nobody wants a Dive Machine? I'll just leave that be.

That and from a business perspective, Busch had an exclusive deal, which is obviously up now. Six Flags is too cheap to buy a B&M other than a compact Wing Rider (X-Flight), Universal and Disney aren't in the market for one (they are rarely in the market for any major thrilling roller coaster now for that matter), and Holiday World took their one shot on a launch Wing Rider. They got B&M to launch something so of course they went with that.

Superbatbsy, I wasn't referring to your post exclusively. I was addressing a collective if posts. I'm posting from a mobile device, which limits my quoting abilities. I apologize for that miscommunication.

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2016 Agenda: Dollywood, Kentucky Kingdom, and more.
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#1309 Superbatbpy

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 02:47 PM

I'm sure the dive coaster will be a decent ride, the problem I'm having is why at CP?? CP doesn't NEED a dive coaster (a 17 year old concept). They need something groundbreaking like Magnum, TTD, Maverick, Raptor, and MF were. Otherwise it seems like they're adding a coaster just for the sake of adding one.

A dive coaster doesn't greatly improve CP's line-up, but it would at a park like Dorney, WoF, Knott's, Valleyfair, etc;

You all are absolutely insane. This is a B&M Dive Machine! The only two in the US consistently rank in the top 30 roller coasters in the world! And yet you all are demolishing Cedar Point.

Really? Wicked Twister was innovative?! Let's just make the back spike a twist and a little taller than all the others. This is far more innovative than that! I just don't understand how a roller coaster that if it rides like Griffon and SheiKra should rank in the top 30 is basically being regarded as an addition of no use.

I dare say this kind of logic may one day be the demise of roller coaster enthusiasts. One day everything is just going to be too boring and not innovative enough and everyone clamoring with lose interest, which honestly is fine by me.

How does Six Flags win by default when only one of their potential additions even has the chance of eclimpsing this? An RMC Iron Horse of Roar is no longer innovative folks. This will be the sixth Six Flags Iron Horse, while Cedar Point's addition will only be the third Dive Machine in the US, and we haven't seen one since 2007.

That and does Cedar Point really need anything? Do they really need a new roller coaster? Absolutely not. There are plenty of other parks that would kill for this ride and yet Cedar Point enthusiasts are running from it like the plague.

That and we can't magically predict the future. If you really think Cedar Point's days of leading the thrill industry are over than so be it. As I've said before, Kinzel could be brought back on tomorrow. We really have NO IDEA what the future holds for any park. All I'm saying is never say never. That and we do happen to be working with the park chain that convinced B&M to go above 300' and build a state of the art Invert, when it was thought that ride style was long gone.
Insane because we have an opinion that differs from yours? Interesting.

And you're misconstruing what I meant about Wicked Twisted. In 2002, the Intamin impulse coasters had only been around for what? 2 years? Whereas in 2016 the dive coaster concept will have been around for 17-18 years. Even with a small coaster addition in 2002, CP had an interest in what was the new hotness.

Sheikra and Griffon have been ranked inside the top 30, okay, and? MF, Magnum, Raptor, Maverick, and TTD have all been ranked inside the top 10 or higher whether it be Golden Ticket or Mitch's Hawkers. Why isn't CP aiming higher? Why are they settling for a "might be top 30 coaster"? And spending $20 million or more while doing it.

As far as predicting the future, Gatekeeper was one thing... but now this is two in a row where the park has decided to add something safe. This isn't the philosophy that made the park what it is today.

And what's wrong with an enthusiasts wanting something with high thrills from a park that built a reputation for building the best? It's like being used to driving Mustangs, then suddenly being forced to drive Camrys. Toyota's are popular, safe, and reliable too. How fun is it to drive one though?

Edited by Superbatbpy, 21 August 2015 - 02:49 PM.


#1310 mrchester

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 03:08 PM

Maybe they can add the worldest fastest boomerang or the worlds tallest wild mouse in the next few years.  Those seem to be really popular models everywhere else.


That isn't what I was saying, but if they can build a better wild mouse go for it. My point was that fun is fun. Stats might tell you what to expect but you don't really know till you ride.

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#1311 drachenfirebgw

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 03:13 PM

I think it's insane that we are taking what will probably be a great roller coaster and complaining about it.

I get that Cedar Point is the biggest and the best, I get that it's enthusiasts want more than this, but if this is what it is it is still going to be great. I get that it is disappointing for some, but for me it isn't. I'm NOT saying it's insane to be disappointed, or to think this is a step down (that is a matter of opinion). I am saying that Cedar Point could be getting nothing at all, much less the third Dive Machine in the US, and I do think it's insane to say that Cedar Point isn't Cedar Point anymore just because of this is the proposed addition. Like I said before, we can use the past and present to judge the future but only so far. We had no idea Kings Island and B&M were going to put together Banshee and we had no idea Cedar Fair was going to push B&M over 300'. This furthers my point that we have no idea what they future holds for Cedar Point or any park for that matter, (as much as we enthusiasts like to think we do). My attitude is that it's going to be a great addition, and therefore we should be satisfied.

Regardless of whether it meets a particular standard of innovation, which I happen to think it does considering the rarity of these roller coasters and considering this could be the tallest, fastest, and hold the most of inversions of any Dive Machine. Even if it is similar to Griffon and SheiKra, it's still going to be great.

The first Intamin Inverted Impulse was built with two straight spikes in 1998. In 2002, Wicked Twister was built, and it was taller, faster, and had two twisted spikes. One more than what had been done in previous years. After that not a single one was built. These roller coasters are decent in my opinion but not great. Wicked Twister's innovation was marginal in comparison to every other addition, yet we didn't hear these kinds of complaints then.

The Dive Machine has been around since 1998 as well. However, far more have been built since then, specifically internationally. This is a result of Busch Gardens' deal with B&M in the US. The designs have increased in demand and popularity over time and have innovated far beyond the Intamin Impulse. Oblivion to Griffon/the newer International models versus Screamin Condor to Wicked Twister. This leads me to believe there the Dive Machine is better, of greater demand, and has been more innovative. This is obviously a matter of personal preference, but regardless I think the case can be made that the Dive Machine has been much more beneficial and more innovative.

That and I don't think this addition or GateKeeper are safe at all. They are a more proven, more reliable product yes, but that doesn't quality them as safer additions. I don't have a problem with Cedar Point enthusiasts wanting the park to aim for the absolute best. All parks should. I do have a problem with the community being ungrateful for what will probably be a great roller coaster, something that will continue to sustain this great park, and will cost around $20 million.

2015 Agenda: Carowinds, Holiday World, and Six Flags St. Louis.
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Coaster Count: 151 - Griffon Count: 52


#1312 Andrew Rybarczyk

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 04:02 PM

If Wicked Twister is your only example, it's a pretty poor argument. Wicked Twister was hardly a superstar addition and wasn't even meant to be a headlining coaster. It was added in 2002, 2 years after possibly the greatest coaster ever built was installed. A year later Dragster was built which blew away all records. Wicked Twister should be classified with MaxAir and Skyhawk and not so much with coasters.

Fast forward to now and our last outstanding, mind blowing coaster was almost a decade ago. I think that's a little bit of a difference from the early 2000s.

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#1313 Ryan Shrout

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 04:21 PM

I'm sure the dive coaster will be a decent ride, the problem I'm having is why at CP?? CP doesn't NEED a dive coaster (a 17 year old concept). They need something groundbreaking like Magnum, TTD, Maverick, Raptor, and MF were. Otherwise it seems like they're adding a coaster just for the sake of adding one.

A dive coaster doesn't greatly improve CP's line-up, but it would at a park like Dorney, WoF, Knott's, Valleyfair, etc;

 

 

 

One could argue that CP doesn't "Need" anything. It is already the class of the amusement park world. As people have already stated CP is already basically an "All Star" team of a coaster lineup. Frankly, I think they've run up against the law of diminishing returns. They could invent a new coaster type and it wouldn't really move the needle in terms of attendance any more than this "cookie cutter" dive coaster already will. 


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#1314 Andrew Rybarczyk

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Posted 22 August 2015 - 01:44 PM

I have 2 tickets to CP that need to be used by Labor Day.  Is anyone interested?  PM me.

EDIT: They are spoken for.

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#1315 Sam Natcher

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 04:26 PM

Has anyone heard anything on a timeline for the announcement?


Favorite Parks- Cedar Point-Kings Island-Carowinds-Knoebels-Kennywood
Favorite Steel- Fury325- Millennium Force- Intimidator 305-Bizzaro (SFNE)-Maverick-Banshee-Wicked Cyclone-Nitro-Phantoms Revenge-Diamondback

Favorite Wooden- Boulder Dash-Phoenix-El Toro-Thunderbolt(Kennywood)-Beast-Boss-Twister-Jack Rabbit(Kennywood)-Big Dipper (GL)-Blue Streak (CP)


#1316 Andrew Rybarczyk

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 04:36 PM

well i heard the put the coaster wall back up but along the marina gate midway now.  no dates at all though yet.


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#1317 Seth Walczak 1

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Posted Yesterday, 05:24 PM

https://instagram.com/p/60qq4QDpuy/

https://instagram.com/p/63GbX_DpnF/

It appears Cedar Point is restarting the "Timeline/Countdown?" On Instagram. The pattern seems to be one coaster added a day, and with the way they are posting these, it looks like this is going to be continued. If the pattern continues, we will potentially see an announcement on the 10th, following Rougarou on the 9th. Is this just Cedar Point Hyping us up? Who knows......

#1318 cp2013

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Posted Yesterday, 06:45 PM

the coaster wall is back up and yeah It's right next to the Marina entry.cedar point posting the coasters in order on twitter and facebook is a nice touch for a hint maybe. I have also seen that some more supports and track have arrived at the breakers express landing area.


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#1319 steel-Rock

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Posted Today, 05:06 AM

I doubt that this will be "cookie cutter". Cedar Point always does something that makes their coasters stand out.  

Even Woodstock Express with its 335m model is different than most other juniors in the US. 


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#1320 Andrew Rybarczyk

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Posted Today, 03:58 PM

and so its set...

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